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ClarisTalk AI · the FileMaker AI podcast

AI and Design. Special Guests: Alexis Allen and Matt O'Dell

August 5, 2024 · 78 min · Matt Navarre and Cris Ippolite

Featuring: Alexis Allen - President and Lead Design Engineer at Hyperspace Data Solutions, Inc., and Founder of FM Design University Matthew O'Dell Senior Manager - Tech Experience Design at Capital One Everyone Can Design Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/everyone-can-design/id1731855846?i=1000654905652 Hyperspace Data Solutions: https://www.hyperspacedatasolutions.com FM Design Univ

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Transcript

Transcribed by machine (whisper, large model), 21,383 words. Names and product terms are sometimes misheard; the audio is the record.

Claris Talk AI. It's another episode of Claris Talk AI. We have two special guests today, Alexis Allen and Matt O'Dell. Matt, you used to be in the Claris community and now you're back. So we have two design experts. So Chris and I are going to be peppering them with questions about a couple of very interesting impacts, impacts? No, sure, about AI and design. So how really kind of two different areas. Matt, you had a really good way of describing it a second ago. Tell us what that is. Well, I think when it comes to design and AI, I think there are two major topics that at least are kind of bubbling up in the design community these days. And one is obviously the concept of AI being a replacement for designers or AI as a way of generating design is probably a better way of putting it or more polite way of putting it at times.

And then the other being around, like, how do you as a designer actually design an interface for something that is built on AI and uses the different concepts of AI? And so I think those are kind of the two large topics that we end up getting drawn into of like, what does it mean to be responsible when you're building something with AI? And then also, what are the moral implications and other things that happen when it comes to generating designs via AI? So that's that's where. I end up spending and reading, reading the most of these days about those two. Alexis, I'm kind of guessing that you and Matt sort of come at each of those two different angles.

Am I right about that? I think so. I think Matt is more of a general experience, user experience designer. So I think that his applications are a bit more broad. I typically specialize right in FileMaker specifically. And so I may be using AI in a more targeted way than maybe Matt might. And so maybe that makes it more useful for somebody. Maybe with Matt's set of tools or experience level. I'm not sure if that's true or not. I'm sure there's lots of AI applications for FileMaker specifically in terms of design for FileMaker. We can talk about that a little bit as we go through and sort of see where we might where it might be useful, where it might not be useful, where we might need to be a bit more critical of it and so on.

I think that's a great point. Chris, we haven't heard you yet. Oh, yeah. It's a world record. Well, first, speaking to Alexis's great point there. As far as I know, I am unaware of any tools specifically for FileMaker design. Not to say that those won't emerge, but I think it's an interesting conversation. I mean, and I'm not dismissing the topic. This is a really important topic. I think what that means is in our community, we don't have an option yet to be able to not replace the design surface within FileMaker to create interfaces. We can certainly, I mean, you could look at like the web viewer as a extended design paradigm, where you can embed a chat and then like FileMaker 21, they released like essentially an add-on for like a chat window that pops up.

I really look forward to getting your guys' take on the chat window experience a little bit later in our discussion. But starting off with design tools, I thought I had this little thing I ran across. I'm just going to share it here. I thought it was just interesting fodder. So, Alexis, you really framed it up really well. There's really designing for FileMaker and then there's designing, right? And so, and I think, Matt, you can. You can be the voice of the designing and I don't really have my finger on the pulse of design. I'm a terrible designer. Matt knows this. We worked, by the way, I just want to say to the great minds in the Claris and FileMaker community, Alexis, absolutely the leader in the clubhouse.

Nobody does it better. I mean, just absolutely bowing to the impact that you have on design. And I will say that that need is profound within the FileMaker community. There's no doubt about the impact. I'm good design and nobody is waving that flag better than Alexis. So, we have links to your website, actually, just to let everybody know, Hyperspace Data Solutions, along with the FM Design University, which will wrap up with our plugs at the end and let you guys provide some context there. And Matt, of course, now at Capital One, which is very exciting, but a lot of people that are watching or listening to this probably remember you from the Claris world.

And I am excited. I'm excited to say that in between Claris and Capital One, we got to work together. And the impact that Matt has had has been profound within our organization. And literally every day, something that Matt brought to us and to our FileMaker software design process, it shows itself. So, and one of those big things is moving towards a more visual approach to defining requirements. So, yeah, on that, I think like you bring up the idea. Like, okay, well, there's FileMaker design and there's other design. But I think like one thing I tried to do when I was working with you and really getting my feet wet, really doing design as a job versus doing it as like a side hobby of stuff was showing that like, you know, it's one in the same.

And that, yes, there is like whatever place you're designing for, there should be some sort of knowledge of the medium that you're working in. And like, for example, when I came and joined Capital One, we have a lot of designers that work on web. Web interfaces and fewer that have experience designing for native iOS and native Android. And that was a big thing for a while of like, how do we train up our staff and get people in certain places that have that native experience? Because what was happening was a lot of people were designing iOS interfaces and then like, well, I need an Android one. And then they would just like try to put an Android skin on it, but wouldn't know the paradigms of like, well, actually in material design, which is their design system, here's the things you're supposed to use.

And so I think there's, there's a thing there of like, yeah, you need to know a little bit about the medium, but that said, like, I was still just using Adobe XD back in those days, not Figma to create stuff that would eventually turn into FileMaker designs. And like the, the use of these AI tools, like could similarly do that. If you said like, here's the design system I want you to use, like we create a design system in Figma or something, and then say like, here's, I want you to create an interface using that, like arguably it could do that. Now, granted, you still have to then build it in FileMaker, which is what we would have to do anyway. But at least like it.

It was a way to be able to generate, you could technically generate it using these tools, but it's not, yeah, it's still a step away from where you need it. Yeah, I think that's a fascinating bridge, I think, between the two worlds that you introduced at the top of this. It's the thirst for any design tools would be for creating the wireframes for what the design is going to look like. Then you go in and use FileMaker tools, right? So like for those that are watching on YouTube, I just found this thing from 2023 that says there's like a 1700% interest in Google Trends. On finding design tools. And now specifically, those would be design tools that you create a wireframe that then you then hand to a FileMaker designer and say, bring this to life within the FileMaker paradigm.

And to that point, Matt, you have to understand what FileMaker design surface layer can do, right? Alexis, I would assume that's a really important part about approaching FileMaker design is understanding the platform's capabilities, right? That's absolutely correct. And I think that the main drawback for some of these design tools that we have right now is that they are really... geared towards web development. And so in theory, you can take these wireframes and then you can create a website out of them or a web app out of them. And so that's the real draw, I think, for most people is that I can just sort of go in theory from a sketch to like a working app with a relatively small amount of effort.

And, you know, whether you can or can't, I don't know. That's still an open question in my mind of whether that's really possible. That's the promise anyway. That's what they're kind of hoping will maybe one day get there. So as Matt was saying earlier, the drawback for us as FileMaker people is that we're going to be able to maybe do that. But then the last step, which is kind of here, click and just send this to the web, that's going to be something where we're going to have to actually create FileMaker things, FileMaker layouts out of it. And that may be the part where, you know, if the AI tool is sort of geared towards web and it's assuming that the web is your platform, it might be giving you things that can't be done in FileMaker, for example.

Right? Or they're not easily done. So you have to be aware of those. And I guess that would be sort of my main caveat with a lot of these AI tools is that you still have to have some knowledge, actually quite a bit of knowledge, I would say, about design in order to evaluate whether what it's giving you is actually good. So, yes, it can give you a result. It's like kind of like some of the photos, right? Like it can make a photo. Now, whether or not we judge that to be an accurate photo, whether the person has the right number of fingers, whether, you know, there's lots of things around that. Because it won't be readable. It won't actually be anything. Right.

Right. Exactly. So there's that caveat is that you still need to understand the domain. Like my son, he's in engineering and he brought home a very complicated math textbook. And it was like Trellis coded something for applications. I don't know. I could read the title, right? I could. It was in English. I could read the words, but I did not understand the words. So even if AI were to give me, you know, a digest of everything. That is in that textbook. I would not have the ability to actually understand it or apply it. So I think that if you're approaching these tools with some level of design knowledge of your own, and then you're going in and saying, okay, I'm going to try and have this give me something, then perhaps you can then take that.

And it's a starting point. It's something that you can take and then go with. If, as Matt suggested, you're already starting with a framework. Well, that's part of something that people struggle with in the, in the first place is how do I create my framework? So, you know, there's a lot of work to get there. And I think it can. Ease the transition, but I don't know that it's going to be sort of like a replacement. And I think maybe that's a fear of a lot of people is that, oh, AI is going to replace my job. But I mean, now that we all have phones on our iPhones, well, we still have photographers. We still have professional photographers with professional equipment that are going and doing things, right?

So it's, yes, there's more photography out in the world. That doesn't mean that the specialists are not useful any longer and that you don't need to know something when you're approaching that tool of how to use it. Does that make sense? Hard. Yes. Yeah. I mean, sometimes the professionals are even using iPhones. Yeah. I, I, I just to, to share my own personal philosophy on AI in general, it absolutely Alexis lines up with exactly what you've said. We, you know, in the early years of building AI applications for business, the number one pushback was fear that people were not going to be needed. Like humans will not be needed. So it became clear that we, as an organization, we had to have a philosophy about this.

So the sort of somewhat kitschy way that I. I express this is we're not building robots to replace humans. We're building iron man suits to give these human superpowers. And, and really that, that means we're just trying to create drafts of outputs. So whether it be marketing materials or actual, like, you know, written proposals or whatever, or insights for that matter, the emphasis is on, this is a draft for you to go. Now we've, we're trying to level you up or get you to like step three of 10 and then let the humans do what humans do well. And I think. I think that philosophy applies much like what you're saying, Alexis, to the design process, right?

You can only really get so far before that design acumen is necessary. Yeah. I think the, the other thing that we've started to hear also in the design community, I think this is probably why there's a little bit of fear with like the generation side of things is because in many cases, when you're working with an organization or a team that has less of a design maturity, you end up becoming what like known as order takers, right? It's like, I'm not doing the re I'm not doing the UX process. I'm not doing the double diamond as they call it, or whatever. I'm not doing, uh, discovery and learning. I'm an order taker from a product team who is doing all of that work themselves.

And then say, here's the screen I want you to design, make it look pretty for me. And then you're like, and that's when that, when you have that level of work, it's not very fun. And then there's this fear of like, if that's how they see us as designers in many cases. And then we're like, well, now I have this other thing that just will do that for me. I can just tell it to do that thing. So what, what has been interesting. Is seeing like the people that I've seen that tend to go in that direction of leveraging those tools that aren't designers. It's like, I'm not a designer, but I want to leverage that tool are the people that tend to have that more, that mindset of what design work is, but design work is, is much more than that.

And to your point of like where the designer can then come in, like a designer can even leverage that tool themselves, but where the real work comes in is in the research is in understanding the problem you're trying to solve. Understanding what is the content and what is the hierarchy of that content and how it plays together, creating an ERD of, of stuff or an object oriented UX way of describing the world. And like having that is actually where like the work is, that's where the hard stuff is. And that in many cases, like learning general visual design things at certain cases, like if I'm not trying to break new ground and create something really like fantastic and out there, but I'm just trying to make something generally look nice.

Yeah. There's. You know, those paradigms have been solved, like people know what a general good looking thing is and what a good, nice font is. And AI might be able to create that for some people, but and so that's where like it gets interesting where it's like, well, yeah, the work is not this as much, or it can be that like, if you really are trying to go for something, but like, I don't, I just need a base level of it generally looking nice, but like I need to make sure it's solving the right problem and it has the right content and it's helping the person through. I don't know. I guess I, I still. Think we're really far away from what I perceive that we do as file maker developers, which is to find out what the application is actually supposed to do, whether the users are telling you or not, like understanding what their business is and understanding like what, what will make their business more successful and what will make their users happy.

Um, I don't, I don't think that's not something that I think you can get yet from, from like not even close, frankly. Yeah. But, but on that, I think like the, the interesting thing that these tools do give, and I haven't, I haven't tested them enough to know if they'll be able to do this or not is so much in learning. If you're solving the problem the right way can be prototyping. Again, I gave that, that file maker talk however many years ago about prototyping, but like if, if like, if prototyping is the thing of like a, it's one way of learning and like validating, like the ability to generate ideas and generate stuff quickly so that I can't test it, um, is, is like an interesting way to be able to leverage that.

Cause again, there's, I think there's a thing I had to get over when I got into design of like the idea of like, just because you generated an idea, it doesn't mean it's a precious thing and you need to be willing to throw it away. And I think there's also a bit of feeling of like, well, if I didn't generate it, if AI generates it for me, I feel easier to throw it away. But that kind of quick iteration of stuff could be, could be useful. Uh, the pro. I think the prototyping and ideation part of the role of AI is interesting. I'm not sure. I'm not sure yet. So let me give you an example. Like we, we, you know, we're, we, uh, are all familiar with AI generating images, uh, mostly what, for the purposes of memes and, uh, sending images to our friends and having some fun with it.

I don't know how much practical use case. Well, we think we found a practical use case with one of our client deployments where they basically have designers who are very skilled at creating a product packaging designs and, uh, um, like marketing materials, uh, for print and online. And one of the challenges that they encountered was that when the client, when the potential customer comes in and tries to describe what it is that they're looking for, they then hand that to the human designers who go through multiple costly, right. Just as far as like time overhead, um, the iterations to just establish where they start, like literally like the prototype or, you know, like the starting point of the ideation discussion.

So we inserted these tools. We didn't go with like. Uh, Dolly type approach went more with, uh, like a stable diffusion, uh, version, which allows us to actually take old designer, um, where actually can train the model. Uh, those are diffusion models where you start with an image or a collection of images and then kind of change it from there rather than start from scratch. So it's not really text to design. And what we found was the, that, that approach does not be create the out, the final output. Like it's not even close to the final output, but what it does is it helps, it helps get their customers started getting. The idea from their brain into something that they can now like have a more tangible conversation with.

And, and I wonder, is there like a world of that within, you know, file maker, uh, layout prototyping, but perhaps. I mean, perhaps I think the challenge always is going back to what Matt said is about like the research, right? So that's the part that the AI really isn't doing for you. It's not, it's not able to kind of talk to the people. Um, and. I mean, you're the person with it. So at the end of the day, you're the one. With that knowledge, that's inputting the prompts into the AI in the first place. So you're already doing some amount of synthesis, some amount of research, some amount of work. And I think, yes, you're correct. I can foresee that AI could reduce some of that time spent potentially in giving you ideas, similar to like, if you're writing an essay on something, maybe you're going to go into chat GPT or you want to research something general topic, right?

But you're, those are just going to be starting points and then you're going to dive in on your own more deeply to make sure you actually understand those things, assuming you're not plagiarizing something. But you know, you're going to want to understand all of those things more deeply. And obviously for a client, it's going to be pretty obvious if you don't know what you're talking about. Right. So you're going to want to understand and know, and be selecting the right things. I played around with one of the tools, uh, which was, I think it's called a wizard. It's got a weird tie. It's UI zerd. So I think it's wizard. Yeah. And I asked it to give me like an invoicing, um, app, this one here.

Yeah. And it gave me something, but it was very different from what I would have chosen. And so I think the, the sort of potentially weak part of this is that, um, you know, it's, it's derivative, right. It's based on what's already there. And so if you're designing in the way that it has been trained, then, then that's cool. And I think, um, um, Chris, you were talking about, you know, training it on your own material potentially, and then you have a bit more control, I think that way, right. Because you're kind of controlling what's going in a lot of these AI models. It's kind of obscure or, or opaque about what has actually gone into training it. So you're not really sure where it's getting this information and you know, that may or may not be good.

I, I don't know. Um, and it probably depends on the model too. If you're training your own model, perhaps the, um, there's more potential there that is going to be closer to, to what you want to do, but at the end of the day, you're still doing some work. So what is, what work is this really taking away from you? Like what you have to think, I think critically about how much is this time release? Is this really saving me? So for myself, I didn't find that it saved a lot of time, perhaps for somebody who is just starting out and they want to get an idea or they want to, um, you know, get some just options you like visual options for something new, maybe that could work, but then there's also lots and lots and lots of inspiration that's already out there, right.

You can go and just do an image to Google image search for screenshots and look at all kinds of things. So there's, there's not just AI for that. You can use like the whole world, right. All of the software that's out there. That's available is available to you for inspiration. So you know, if you're not used to using Figma, perhaps I think it could be useful, but it doesn't take that much to learn Figma. So you know, I think you need to sort of critically evaluate whether it's going to work for you. And I think you, for example, found a specific situation where it works perfectly. And then I think those are the things you need to find and kind of go for those.

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