ClarisTalk AI · the FileMaker AI podcast

EngageU wrap-up :: Joris Aarts and Jay Sayers

October 13, 2026 · 25 min · Matt Navarre and Cris Ippolite

Live from EngageU in Malmö, Sweden. Episode 2 of 3. Two conversations from the last day of the conference. First up: Joris Aarts. He runs EngageU along with Johan Hedman (They make it look easy, which it isn't). Fifty new attendees this year. Pretty much every session was about AI, and the few speakers who opened with "no AI" got applause. We talk about what the panel changed my mind on, why this feels like the iPad era all over again, and next year in Antwerp. He says 300 people. Matt says...

Apple PodcastsSpotifyYouTubeAll episodes

Transcript

Transcribed by machine (whisper, large model), 6,981 words. Names and product terms are sometimes misheard; the audio is the record.

0:00But is it just using AI to code something? It's AI in the process. You get so much more bandwidth on a live conference. I didn't realize what a huge attack surface MCP servers are. Clara's Talk AI. I'm here with Joris. The session is done. How do you feel? Another successful conference? I think so, yes. 50 new attendees. 50 new? 50 new attendees, yeah. Wow. It's exciting. And I talked to a couple of them. They're coming back. So I hope we're growing. And some very, very cutting-edge sessions. We had a last-minute session proposal on AI, something that really just was released a couple of weeks ago, and we have it on our conference. Yeah, that was excellent. That must have been Heidi, yeah?

0:51That's Heidi for the session, yes. Yeah, Jeff, definitely an important thing. Jeff, yeah. I need a little bit of that. That's awesome. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how that's going to come to play, but I think it's going to be really good for sure. Fast and cheap. Yeah, yeah. I read that book, Thinking Fast and Slow, and how do you call it? One and two thinking? Yeah, yeah. System one, system two. System one, system two. And it just makes sense to apply it to AI. Yes, that's true. Yeah, so it's like an aha moment. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's definitely a useful concept. I don't know if I quite equate it to the same thing, but it's definitely fast and cheap versus the long, slow, like think about it thing.

1:40Exactly. Of course, when AI thinks about something long and slow, that means five seconds. Yeah, it depends on the task, but yes. Yeah, as a person. If you can have like split second decisions, that can only be helpful in early triage of requests. And not only just the decision, but also it's waiting, the beginning of the different things to know then which way to go. So you can get a quick decision to say, oh, I'm going to go this flavor of AI, that flavor of AI, whatever. Yeah, so look, we are already discussing AI again. I know. As a wrap-up of the conference, so that's the impact, right? Exactly, it was an all day, every day AI conference pretty much. Yeah, yeah.

2:15I heard that there's a few sessions that weren't AI. They actually said at the beginning, okay, no AI, and then they got applause. Yeah, yeah, yeah, true. Makes me feel bad. It was a running joke, too. Both of mine were pure AI, so. Yeah. Yeah. So I got to congratulate you. I know there's a huge amount of effort to make something this easy. To make it look easy, yeah. To make it look easy and to attend and have everything just be exactly right. Yes. You know, so the, you know, having it in the hotel, which I know takes a lot of organization, you, everybody's in the lobby bar. They, you know, the congregation area outside of the rooms is good. The sessions are perfectly selected.

2:56Mm-hmm. The rooms are the right size for the. Yeah. The sessions, the audio is great. All the little details. Food was good. No Cinnabons, apparently. No, no, so strange this year. Yeah. But it's, yeah, it was a very good experience the first time here in Clarion. So coming back makes things a lot easier for us. Yeah, for sure. Just simply the AV audio crew are the same, and they will be the same next edition, so that makes for a very good, smooth working relationship. Yeah. And we changed one important thing. We went to three days. Yeah. Two days. Good job, by the way. Four trucks. I definitely appreciate that. So you are missing less sessions during the event, and you get more time for mingling interaction, and I think that was generally appreciated.

3:38I got a few comments here and there from people saying like you had three business days, maybe take one weekend day or something, so we might consider that. Oh, I see. Yeah. Interesting thought. I actually thought, well, when I did my sessions, one of them I was like, oh, there's this other session I really would rather, I wanted to go to. Yeah. I was speaking, so I couldn't. Yeah. Yeah. But that's okay. That's going to happen. Everything is recorded, so we can watch it again. In a month or so. Yeah. Yeah. In a month or so. So it's the same team, and last time they delivered it within one month. Oh, yeah. Nice. Yeah. No errors. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you again also for giving me the opportunity to the panel discussion at the end and practice my stand up comedy.

4:19Yeah. Yeah. I think we had very good panelists. Yeah. It was a very smooth conversation going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, we'd love to see a bit more debate sometimes, but there was generally consensus on most of the topics. Yeah. It's hard to get people to disagree. But it was good to have different angles, the technical angle, then the business angle, and then Clarice's perspective. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And the business angle, I think I left, changed my mind about some things. I think I would sort of lean towards AI for the sake of AI, and I think I would do that considerably less. Yeah. Because of that conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Because of the consensus on that issue.

5:04Yeah. Makes me think about the iPad era. Remember when the iPad came out and finally the Go came out? Yeah. Yeah. And suddenly, we will do everything on mobile, and then after some years, you learn that... Yeah. That's really not where it's... Some traditional things. Yeah. Even though we use our phones for everything every day, we don't work on them. We don't do database work on them, pretty much, unless it's like a real field app where you're tracking GPS locations and counting. We're tracking GPS locations and camera and things that are really, really native to the phone. Yeah. Yeah. And then next year in Antwerp, huh? Yes. So the hotel is already booked, so to say.

5:40We're just going to figure out which dates work best, so to be out of the way of other conferences and to allow maximum amount of Claris staff to make it to our conference as well, because you have the Japanese close by. Right. Which is a huge one. Yeah. It's a huge one. So, of course, we don't want to overlap and we want to give Claris people... Well, to be... Oh, I see that. I see that. But to be fair, one person from Japan came or two, right? I mean, it wasn't... We had Koji. Yes. It's really far to get from Japan to Europe. Yes. Yes, indeed. So we wanted to approach that Japanese community and we're very glad he's here and we hope to see more people next year.

6:19I'm really trying to get more of the people from the US to come, Canada. Mm-hmm. And because there's not going to be an Engage conference, I'm going to make a lot of noise to get people from the US to come to this conference. Yes. Thank you. Do that. And to get their passport dusted off and get over here. Yeah. Having permanently moved out of the US to Europe, I'm a little bit biased. But this just has all of the flavor of what dev cons used to be. So my really big question for you is this, what's your goal for a number of attendees? Because I think if you get a larger... Yes. Yes, good question, because this... Is there a place to recycle these? Because this year in Malmo, we're not really growing in number of people.

7:06We're growing in new attendees. I see that as growth. I see that as like... Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Potential for returning. And we know that the location centrally in Europe is much more convenient. And then we get larger delegations from companies. Yeah. So I definitely see room, opportunity for growth next year. We were at 250 last time in Antwerp and we can easily grow to 300 or even 400 if we want to. That's definitely what I want to hear. So I think 300 should be a reasonable goal for next year. Yeah. 400 does sound like a reasonable goal for next year. 400 is ambitious, but not impossible. And the venue certainly can handle this. Yeah, that's good. I know it's ambitious, but I'm pulling for it.

7:44Yes. Yes. Yes. Thanks. I think it's just so important. I mean, God, every single thing about it. The things that I take away, the things that so many people take away from this is just worth its weight in gold. And it's expensive flights. Yeah. Like Robert Holsey predicted, or Giuliano, you get so much more bandwidth on a live conference. Yes. So much more input that you don't get in online meetings, planned meetings. Right. It's the unplanned and the serendipity. I've talked to several people who got a lot of work out of it. So, I mean, there's people who need help on something, and there's people who are looking for work on something. And this is a great place to connect.

8:30But, you know, the huge part of the value comes from what's happening outside of the sessions. Oh, yes. Dinners, walking, hanging out at the bar, the social event. Exactly. And sometimes it's that's what's not told and what you read between the lines that matters as much. And that is the advantage of a live conference. You can read between the lines. Apparently karaoke last night. Yeah. It was a success. Okay. So, yeah, we're probably going to do that again next year. I have seen another site from this amazing community, and people have discovered sites from themselves that they didn't know existed. I didn't know. But it turned out real fun. Yeah. What I do know is I left just in time before it started.

8:59Although it might have been fun. Yeah. Maybe some of that video will leak. Well, what other thoughts do you have? Any other parting comments or questions? No, no, no. An invitation, of course, to all of you. Come and experience it for yourself. It's a unique community, and we are learning every year. We're iterating every year, and we're taking the feedback very seriously. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

9:17And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

9:45And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

10:12And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

10:39And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

11:06And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

11:23And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

11:50And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

12:17And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

12:44And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

13:01And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

13:28And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

13:45And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

14:02And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

14:29And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

14:56And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

15:23And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

15:50And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

16:17And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

16:34And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

16:51And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

17:18And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

17:45And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

18:12And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

18:39And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

19:06And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

19:33And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

19:50And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

20:07And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

20:34And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

21:01And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

21:28And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

21:45And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

22:12And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

22:29And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

22:56And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

23:23And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

23:50And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.

24:17And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year. And I think we are improving every year.