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ClarisTalk AI · the FileMaker AI podcast

Insights on AI and FileMaker Development: Interviews with Experts at DotFMP Berlin

June 11, 2024 · 65 min · Matt Navarre and Cris Ippolite

Matt has conversations with some conference attendees: Jakov Milovanovic – Keeneight Chris Moyer – The Moyer Group Stathis Askaridis (Στάθης Ασκαρίδης) – We Know Data Vince Menanno – Beezwax Egbert Friedrich – Founder and producer of dotfmp.berlin Links: Claris Community Live: Learn about AI prompting basics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQlOu-BIs5U See CRIS at Summerfest-Tech “A.I Deployed: Re

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Transcript

Transcribed by machine (whisper, large model), 14,288 words. Names and product terms are sometimes misheard; the audio is the record.

Claris Talk AI Here we are, .fmp in Berlin. Hello. Video for the first time. Yep. So, tell us a little bit about yourself and what changes you've had in your life lately. Hi, I'm Jakub Milovan, which I have been a developer for the last 9 to 10 years. It becomes a bit difficult to tell. So you're new. Relatively, relatively. I mean, for this industry and platform, I'm quite new. So, I've come to .fmp to catch up a bit and see what everyone has been researching and developing. Because if you want to find out the latest and greatest, .fmp is the right place for it. Yeah, it's very technical. What are the big things you've seen so far? So far, I've seen that there's a big trend going towards AI, I would say.

What's that? I mean, this is Claris Talk AI. Yeah, no, I'm kidding. This is Claris Talk AI, so that's definitely what we're all about. Yeah, for sure. But there's been a big, big push for that, and there's been a big push towards conversations about how to actually implement it business-wise. It's not all about the technology itself, but you have to find a way to sell it to the clients, to kind of market the advantages that it brings. Yeah, utility, not just technology. Also, I think there's a big push towards extending the capabilities. So, what Claris is doing with Studio, I think, has pushed many people. They're going to also looking for alternatives, so.

Yeah, well, did you see the Studio, Claris Studio presentation of what's coming? I did, and it's great. It blew my mind. I'm actually really excited about it. It's quite good, but I just say that people are still finding ways of developing React builders. Definitely. I mean, I've seen a guy here who literally built an entire front-end builder. I missed that yesterday, but I heard it was amazing. It was amazing. I mean, it's quite interesting. Do you remember what that is? We can look it up. I forgot. I forgot the name. It's on the site, on the .fmp. Oh, yeah, yeah. We'll post it. We'll post it. I think WebZip or something like that. Oh. Something Zeppelin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's, I mean, it's amazing. And it's amazing that you can now do that with all the support that you get from the new steps like perform script and server with a callback. I know. With state options. Yeah, with the new options, right? Yeah. So, it's great. It's been good. The thing that I, well, I talked a little bit about Studio, actually, because that presentation really blew my mind. So, from the beginning, what I've really wanted is like a custom layout. I missed, actually, that presentation. Oh, it was something. I heard from the people here, but I missed it. Yeah, it was. People were super impressed. So, like, one of the guys told me about it, and it did seem quite interesting.

Yeah, it's unreleased stuff, but it was really working quite well. And, like, basically a custom type of a layout. So, you can put in whatever elements you want in frames and really code it. So, you can show relational data. You can have a picker. You can get data from different sources. You can have, you know, all the templates. No, you're not locked into templates. But all the little elements that they've been building that I haven't been excited about, like Kanban and charts and things like that, can now be integrated in, like, a little part of the frame or not. You can just make, you can make, like, a, you know. No, that's big, actually. I think it is.

That's big because it allows for much more flexibility. Yeah. Which makes it way more usable. Yeah, as a dashboard, I think this is going to be finally something really, really powerful. And, like, all the other little areas of it. Well, it's already, I think, from what I've heard from the feedback, I think it's already a good tool for data gathering, for an example, in a way. Yeah, I don't know. For basic stuff. Maybe, but I've actually put it into production a while ago, but I haven't. It seems like it's been completely stagnant for a year. So, and this, this really puts the changes there. Well, what happened with Connect, if you remember as well. That's true.

When Connect came out, it was first part pricey as hell. Right. And then, I mean, I remember, for an example, when we were on pause on error, people were literally going to, I think, to Douglas and just saying, like, what's going on with it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no updates. Yeah, now we have, you know, we have custom connectors and some other things, and Connect actually is really useful. Yeah, because he did say, I mean, Connect was essentially trapped by Apple. I think, for a certain amount of time in development. Oh, yeah. And once they pushed it out, it was amazing. The pricing model changed, the features changed. Connect is quite good now, I would say.

Yeah, I have a couple of things in production. Mostly what I love about it, I'm getting the framing bad here, is reaching back into FileMaker. It seems like it's the easiest way to reach into FileMaker and update data, run a script, do things like that. Yeah, it's convenient. But if you're just doing something to go out, like send a mail with SendGrid or something like that. I think it's kind of easier to do the traditional. But if you've got the whole circle and you've got a bunch of different things. Yeah, and also people are quite used to doing it in the traditional way. Yeah, yeah. When the data API initially came, you had a lot of people who were pushing like limits, figured out that you can use it to replace SQL.

There's a lot of interesting things. For an example, you could, I know when the court made an article, for an example, about asynchronous programming. And that heavily depended on the admin console API. And the data API. Yeah. But, of course, if you would go to most of the developers at the time when the data API just came out, it wasn't at first the big, you know. Right, yeah, yeah. But now everyone uses it for everything, essentially. Yep, that's true. The other sort of pivot that I think I've seen is, of course you do, it doesn't really have a scripting language. It's really not. That's what it's not. It's about. Yeah, it's. But Connect is a script. It's a scripting language.

And it's becoming more of that. So I think kind of we're seeing like your back-end data could either be the native web data that you get with Studio or FileMaker. Okay. Well, I guess you, you know, have FileMaker connect to that data source. The other way around. And then Connect becomes your scripting language. It can do all the work between those sources. Oh, that's. So basically sort of it's a, you know, and I didn't really think about it that way, but that's really, really cool. When you're, when you're actually talking about it, that does make sense. Yeah, because I mean, all the triggers you get from Studio and from FileMaker can trigger things into Connect.

Yes, and then you can just work off of each other. Yeah, or to any other source, right? To Slack or whatever. Yeah, so. It is great. Also. I think that's going to evolve. Have you seen what Christian has been doing? Yes. He's always on fire. You can't keep track. I haven't seen new things with it, but yeah, it's so much. There's like 15 million features in there. He's, he's constantly adding stuff, so MBS is amazing. Yeah. What else has been interesting, for example? I have to confess something. My arm is getting really tired holding this phone. No, we can, we can, we can end it here and people should also take a look, research a bit and see what happened as well.

Yeah, definitely. Well, thanks very much for talking to me. No, thanks for having me, so. I wanted to ask you more questions, even though we stopped. So you were talking to me about, um, your work lately and FileMaker and tracking. Uh, manufacturing of supercars, very sexy. Yeah, so I have, I have recently switched or at least moved positions from, I worked for SmallCo for a number of, for a long time. I love that company. SmallCo essentially brought me up in a way and some of the best FileMaker developers and people that I've met for my career, I still deeply love all of them, but I recently moved to another company. Also amazing people, amazing developers, and you know, how with time, when you work as a certain place for a long time, you kind of see the same clients.

Sure. So this has been also a great opportunity for me to see other industries and how they, yeah, so for an example, who would have guessed that supercars can be, that you can track the development process of supercars using a tool like FileMaker because we are talking about relatively big companies. With big budgets. Yeah. With a lot of complex projects. Yeah, very complex projects. An average car has, an average car has somewhere between, I think, 16 and 20,000 parts that need to be tested, developed, and of course, a lot of them are moved from one place to, from one model of a car to another. Right. But the thing is, a lot of them are not. Right. Yeah, or upgraded versions or just completely new parts.

Yeah, yeah, there's, so for an example, there's algorithmic testing of the factory. Yeah, there's an algorithm to do a few parts. So, so it's super exciting to, to get into, and also some of the newer features from FileMaker really enable, enable the entire ecosystem to work. Interesting, like what things are you using that are new? So for an example, one of the things that's been heavily used, and that's maybe not from the latest version, but for example, the changes that were done to JavaScript, like the ability to perform JavaScript is something that you really. Yeah, as a script step. It can, it can really help you with crunching large amounts of data on the spot.

But yes, there's some really great things to do visually with it, with the web viewer, but also JavaScript is super fast compared to some of the stuff. So if you can use the data API, for an example, to pull in the data, and then you can use JavaScript to crunch it, there's, it really opens up a whole new world of possibilities. Yeah, for sure. Combine that with a plugin. Yeah, that's, that's really cool. Yeah, that's really cool. And I think that's really cool. And I think that's really cool. And I think that's really cool. And I think that's really cool. And I think that's really cool. And I think that's really cool. And I think that's really cool. And I think that's really cool.

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And-- Oh, really? Yeah. I can't remember. It was a few years ago. But yeah, they had a very, very large set of FileMaker databases running in different divisions. I mean, I knew that they used it. But I actually didn't know, like, in what capacity. Yeah, I'm not sure what the story is now. But that was very heavily used at the time that I was talking to people. That's interesting. I know one-- well, Albert, who was the CEO of the previous company I worked in, was always amazed by the fact that Volvo used FileMaker. That was, like, one of the biggest-- I think he even wanted to try to consult on design for Volvo as well at some point in time. I'm not surprised at all that very, very large companies use it for divisions.

I've seen that in plenty of cases. I'm not surprised for divisions. But I am surprised-- Company-wide? Yeah, that it's implemented company. Company-wide, for example. That's a surprise. But the thing is, I think, and what I've heard now, I think, consistently, the biggest advantage of FileMaker is just the sheer ability to out-develop anything else on the market. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You maybe cannot compete on speed in some cases. Right. I mean, you're talking here on a higher level. So yes, if you optimize FileMaker, yes, it can be super performant, even compared to web solutions, because you have to-- it's also the quality of the developers who make it make a big difference.

But the thing is, when we are talking on, let's say, on a higher level, when we are comparing-- Thousands of users. Thousands of users or what seniors-- so when seniors are developing with different platforms, yes, FileMaker will definitely not be the most performant option. Yeah. I would also submit that when you get to a certain level, FileMaker is extremely fast to develop with. And when you get to the point where you're trying to really get that last 1% and get it up from like 1,000 users to 10,000, it's not as efficient. It's not. The development speed, that's where you really, really have to do a lot of work to get to that level. Yes, but at that point, I mean, if you're getting to that point, you can always try to integrate it with other systems.

Right. And then make something so on one side, you can actually expand the time to develop whatever needs more time to be developed. Yeah. So let's say if you want to do a custom, front-end web app, and you can extend the time, but then you can still have the core done in FileMaker and be able to mold and change the core quite rapidly by leaving the front-end or a certain aspect of your business on a full-stack platform or whatever. And I think that's probably quite a good way to deal with it. Yeah. So you then have both the performance and just the sheer capability of building. You're not building anything with a full-stack option. And you still have the rapid development ability with FileMaker.

Right. So I think that's quite good. Yeah, positioning, that's a thing. I mean, of course, when you're talking about these, it really depends on the client's budget and on their capabilities, timelines, the ability to actually even provide you proper scoping. Because yes, you can develop FileMaker rapidly, but there's differences. But does the client have technical support, a technical consultant who can actually take their business practices, prepare them for you as a company to come and take over? Do you need to be that consultant and actually go in, puzzle together with them what their business logic actually is? On top of that, you have to optimize it, because what humans do, design-wise, generally, can need optimization.

Yeah. So, boy, working at SmallCo, you've certainly got a good-- Yeah, well, SmallCo is one of the-- I would say SmallCo is predominantly biased towards design, which is a super interesting approach. Because I think many of the people who deal with FileMaker, especially the people who come to the conferences, are really techy people. And I'm not saying they're not into design, but I don't think design is the first thing that gets pushed. Yeah, everybody has a superpower. What? Yeah, and average has always been design. And while in SmallCo, design has always been on the forefront. And not something you add on layer, but actually something that you start with.

I love his lessons there. I really take them to heart. No, the master classes he did are quite good. They're almost as good as the classes I teach. Almost as good. But I think you cover different topics. Yeah, we're a very, very different focus. And have different trainings, I would say. I think there's overlap. I certainly-- No, there is overlap. Yeah, I certainly strongly spend time on design, and quality. In fact, that's actually where I start. I don't start with coding, and relationships, and things like that. I start with what things you can find from the world. Directly stuff I learned from Albert, honestly. Yeah, no, no, no. I know there is overlap. What examples out there in the world that you see that you interact with that are joyful, and what things are awful, and how to translate that into building an interfacing file maker.

But that's quite good, because if you do not get past that layer, getting super deep, technically, there's no point you will not be able to use it properly anyway. Yeah, and it won't connect to the user. There's definitely an overlap. But what I meant, Albert has always been generally just focused on the peak. You're supposed to go to Albert when you've already found your clients. I mean, yes, you can go even without that, and you will probably learn a lot. But from my experience, Albert's master classes were always more intended for people who already have businesses, who already have, how would I say, development experience. To a certain degree, they were. And from what I know, at least, you have opened the gates to actually bringing in new people, training people, and also encouraging people.

It's not impossible. Yeah, definitely. I like that. Cool. And that's why I say there's a bit of-- yes, there's an overlap, but I think it's just-- you cover different groups when it comes to extremes. Yeah, definitely. Thank you. I'm trying to look at-- like, the holistic approach. Like, in my class, I try to cover the whole feature set of FileMaker. Oh, yeah, I know that you do a full training and everything. Yeah, I'm sure he gets some of that, too. Well, I've never actually attended his master class, so I can't really talk about it. But I know it's extremely popular and has been for a long time. Especially, he's been for now a couple of years developing the design rules, I'm not sure.

And that's something that I think he presented at a couple of conferences, but I think he's going to keep it up probably in a bigger way in the future, which I think is going to be super interesting, especially to people who already have, for example, failed solutions. So, I mean, if you want to learn, there's a lot of super nice people like you and Albert who are willing to provide. And that's been a big-- honestly, that's been a big upgrade. I remember when I first started, you had Matt Petrovsky, who was quite good when it came to training. And he's still a bomb for videos. He's one of the MVPs of the community, in essence. The content he continues to produce just blows my mind still.

Now you also have, I think, the Richard Carlton Consulting. They've been doing FM training videos. So many of them. Yeah, yeah, so many. But the guests they bring to the track-- to the, I guess, training sessions, like you get the chance to learn from Honzo, which is, for example, acquired-- Yeah, I haven't seen him here. Me neither. The last time I've seen Honzo was, I think, in Malmo. Yeah, I think I saw him there, too. Two years ago. No, I've seen him since then. No, no, I haven't. I think I've seen him two years ago, I think. That's a really smart guy. Cool. Well, thanks very much for chatting with me this morning. Thanks for having me again. It's been fun. Yeah, for sure.

Another segment of FileMaker Talk AI, Stathis Kalimarasas. Good morning, Kalimara. So my little tiny bit of Greek I get to use. So my fellow Greek citizen-- Yes. I joke, I'm so not quite yet. But you're in Athens, yes? Thessaloniki? No, I am in Thessaloniki. Thessaloniki, I just remembered that. And I didn't-- I only met you at this conference. Yep. And I was at your session the first day. And you are one of the smartest people I've ever met. I've ever seen you present. Thank you. And I really wanted to take a little bit of time to talk about what you presented. You showed some JavaScript stuff that just completely blew my mind. Yeah. So the idea was that there are some things that is of great value to do in JavaScript, because then those things are easily portable.

You can use them dynamically in every solution. And in the presentation, besides-- besides that, we also showed how you can have a nice live environment and ways that you can iterate those tools. And you can collaborate. So I think that's-- Yeah, you showed different ways to store it, like where to store the code, ways to store it in a field. Or what are some of the other places that are stored? And what do you think is the best place to store the JavaScript? It depends on the use case. So as we said in the presentation, in a use case that you single want a loading icon, even a custom function like the HTML blob escape, in a custom function would work. Because what you want is just a wave here that spins.

So you don't want any hocus pocus, do that, grab that field or something. So just a custom function would work. If it's something that is layout-based, a technique that just grabs the HTML blob from a text object is fine. But if you want something that you want to use it throughout the solution, a table that accommodates this kind of data is the best approach. So it really depends on the use case, what storage method one should prefer. Yeah, for sure. I think you talked also about really efficient ways to write it. And you really evangelize that you don't have to have a lot of expertise in JavaScript. You just have to have a little bit of a way. And then you can really heavily rely on ChatGPT and Copilot to really do a lot of that.

So yeah, the problem with ChatGPT is that, first of all, it's like a couple of years ago, a year ago or so. Oh yeah, the age of it. Well, for Omni, I'm not sure when it cuts off. Yeah, so yeah, I think they updated it recently. But the machine learning data that is related to FileMaker WebViewers outweighs the merge method, so substitute. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing.

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And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing.

And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing. And I think it's a really good thing.

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