navarre.aiClarisTalk AI · the FileMaker AI podcast
Changes in the world of Value Pricing in the land of AI with Jonathan Stark
Apologies for my audio!! Somehow, Zoom lost the setting and nice quality Mic was off, and the awful mic in my monitor took over, so there is a ton of room noise. Jonathan sounds great though. -- Jonathan Stark is an author and expert that helps developers (and others) think about pricing projects and helping clients differently than the usual hourly billing approach. Now that AI tools like Claude
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Transcribed by machine (whisper, large model), 14,346 words. Names and product terms are sometimes misheard; the audio is the record.
Let's talk AI. Thanks for joining today. Our guest is Jonathan Stark, an expert in value pricing and FileMaker developer, firm reviewer, and author of books with awesome titles like Hourly Billing is Nuts, my favorite title. Welcome, sir. Hey, thanks for having me. Don't forget, building web apps with PHP and FileMaker 9. Oh, yeah. This goes back. Never put a software version number in a book title. Oh, you wrote that one. What year was that? 2006, I think. I haven't written books. Hundreds of videos, podcasts, and whatever. So, gosh, we had a really awesome conversation at the FM DISC meeting in LA a couple of weeks ago. And it really got me thinking a lot about your topic.
Because I think things have changed so much now that we're in the land of AI. Now that your nephew, someone's nephew, can now build a project. And think that they can replace a FileMaker database that's been around for a decade, which is nuts. But how does this change the landscape? That's my biggest question. We can better look it up. Right. I've got some visibility into that, but obviously no one really knows what's going to happen. But I think certainly the case for value-based pricing is stronger than ever. Because just as an example, someone sent me a link to... A conversation in a Reddit thread, a subreddit with a bunch of lawyers in it. And they were scrambling. They were just wrestling with what's the right thing to do.
It's like, I used to spend 10 hours putting these contracts together, and now it takes me 10 minutes. I can still charge for the 10 hours, right? And wrestling with the... Yeah, no. If anyone from the outside would say the answer to that is obviously no. But of course, the person whose income is about to collapse by a factor of 10 is... No, that's... This can't be right. There's got to be some other way to justify us charging what we always charged for the same output. And what's hilarious about that to me is that it's the case for value-based pricing, or at least fixed pricing of some kind. It is the case for my argument, but they still can't see that hourly billing is the problem here.
The problem is you're making a promise to the client that you're going to work a certain number of hours, or you're only going to bill them for hours that you work on them. But you have. Yeah, I can see that. You have a promise. Yeah. I think we're going to have some good discussion, because I see things very differently coming around. Okay. But when it suddenly takes you a lot less time to do just as good of a job, then you are almost certainly going to have to rethink the way that you price if you've been selling your time. Because if you can do things 10 times faster, you're going to need 10 times more work to make the same amount of money. But that's...
It's the same argument. But for any kind of... It's kind of unavoidable. Which part of it? I think you'll have the opportunity to do 10 times as much work if the work takes you a tenth of the time. Which, by the way, I don't think that's realistic. I think it's more, I don't know, half the time, something like that. Okay, let's just say it's half. Having done some projects, there's all these other things that you have to now do that you didn't have to before, if you're doing this a different way. Learning all these other technologies you didn't have to learn before. For Superbase and Fly.io and getting really good at GitHub and all these other things that if you're going to build an application with AI, that there are tools you might not have worked with that you have to have some familiarity with.
You can't just trust everything 100%. So if we're talking just about FileMaker developers, that's true. But there are probably millions of developers who do know how to use all of those things. That's true. Yeah, yeah. But actually, even if you're a traditional developer in any platform other than these tools, then you have new tools to learn. And even if you've been using those things, you have to gain a lot of expertise in how to use AI properly. Yep, I agree. What are your thoughts? You said you have some visibility into the changes. I'd love to know what you think. Yeah, since I am known as someone who talks about pricing for software types of people, I get a lot of input from folks around these sorts of things.
And there's... Roughly speaking, half the people on my mailing list... This is just really broad strokes. But roughly speaking, it feels half the people on my mailing list who are of the software variety are really excited about this. And half are petrified. And their behavior is moving in two different directions. One is that the ones who are really excited about it are probably working more than ever because the output of any given hour that they... Yeah, you included that. Yeah, you included it. So cranking through these passion projects and maybe someday projects that would never have seen the light of day before, but now all of a sudden, if it appears to be more than half as easy, it's like a lot of these things...
Well, for a from scratch project, it is a completely different thing. I think I've saw some report that said like for the really big companies, they're developing software and they're fully using AI. They're getting like a 15% increase in productivity. But if you do a side project from scratch, it goes from impossible to done in a week. It's a 10 or 100 or 1,000 times multiplier. It goes from impossible to done, basically. It's a different kind of math entirely. Yes. And the experience for the pro-AI people, the pro-AI coding people, is that they've had enough... This exactly happened to me, and it's happened to a lot of people I've talked to. The first time they use one of the, like, Cloud Cowork, let's just say, and it one-shots something for them, they're like, oh, I'm never going to sleep again.
And it's like, because probably what happened, at least in my case, there was this feature that I always wanted to add to my website. My website doesn't... It's a homegrown document-based thing. It's not... It's not in a database at all. The FileMaker database people are cringing. No database. But it's just a few million words scattered across a few thousand markdown files. So it was the perfect thing for AI to consume. And I asked it to add a search interface to my website. And 20 minutes later, I had something better than I could have written. It was, like, way better than I could have written that was working. A lot of people have that experience. And it was a relatively simple feature.
It built it in a way that was more sophisticated than even occurred to me. It, like, supported natural language shirts instead of just string-based. Yeah. It created a vector database in JSON. It was crazy. Yeah. And... And... It comes up with ideas at the bottom. Yeah, it comes up with ways to approach it that are even better than what you asked for. I think a lot of people who have had that experience are like, oh, my. I'm never sleeping again because I'm just going to do all of these... I'm going to crank through this backlog of fun side projects and sort of value the... Since you can... Let's just say you can create twice as much. It's more than twice as much.
It's definitely more than twice as much. You can create something at least five times faster if you're using... Once you know how to use the tools. Let's put it like that. Like, if you're a web developer, all of this stuff is normal to you. Yeah. GitHub and all that stuff. So you just point it at a repo. And you're like, oh, my God, I just made a potential business. Like, the prototype for an app that I could literally start selling ads against. And so sleeping feels like a huge missed opportunity. And I'm only exaggerating a little bit. A lot of people have reported that they're, like, up at night thinking of ideas and they climb out of bed to see what Cloud Code can do in 90 minutes.
I'm not quite there. Yeah. I do have a period of a few weeks of maybe unhealthy obsession with a project. It has a little bit of a slot machine feel to it because you just put in the prompt and it goes... Ding. There's your app. You know what? That one-shot thing... Here's a good example. I just redid my whole website and kind of relaunched. Training has been my site. And I'm launching Navar.ai because... And the whole website was built with the assistance of AI and switching to a different platform. And that first one-shot, I said, build me a site. And I saw it and fell out of my chair. Well, weeks of work and hundreds of prompts back and forth and very detailed changes to actually get what I want.
I'm not sure really how much time I saved. I'm really happy with the result. And I'm really happy to get off of Wix, which is just so limiting. But I think that's... It sounds like you're... Yes, I'm sure it's more than twice as fast. But there's this other reality of having... There's a lot of other time you need to spend. Yeah. With these tools to get... To really get that detail. It's a lot of conversation, I would say. Yes. So I've had... Certainly had a similar experience where it does the thing where you tell it to do something and it says, okay, I'm on it. And then five minutes later, nothing has happened. And you're like, what's going on? And it's, oh, you're right.
I didn't actually start. I just said I was on it. And okay, this time I'm actually starting. It's okay, I'm on it. Did you start this time? Yeah. So there are frustrations and there are like... Open, closed, back and forth. Cloud code seems great. What's that? Open cloud. I have a lot of problems with trying to get it to... But with cloud code, especially the terminal version, I don't... It hasn't had that problem. It's been great. Good. So I think what... Here's what happened to me. And I think this is, again, talked to a lot of people who have a similar experience. It's did I actually... I've definitely had times when I explored an idea and then you look at the clock and you're like, I could have written this faster.
Or in the same amount of time. So many... So one thing I think, but you wouldn't have, is one thing. It gets... It sucks you in so that you actually do this stuff. And you get a lot of good traction early. So it keeps you addicted to it, which produces addiction, obviously, has a negative connotation. But you end up with something that you would have never done. So that's pretty satisfying. Yeah. The other thing is... It's unbelievable at prototyping, which is your... The experience you just described was like you fell off your chair, like with the first thing. So it's amazing at prototyping, getting that first version up. Incredible. And then when you want to turn that into, air quotes, real thing that you would charge money for, let's say, that's harder.
But the thing that you end up with almost certainly would never exist. It would never have existed. Would you have hired people? Would you have hired people to do that? No. Would you have learned all of the things you'd need to learn to do it? Maybe. For my website, yes, I would have. But yeah, for a lot of other projects, there's no way. For all my little... All the side projects, some of which are huge. One of them, my largest side projects, I calculated around a billion tokens used, which is a lot. Weeks. You check the math. Weeks of two different AI engines running about 24-7 on doing crunching. I'm not sure if you've seen the stuff on another podcast. I'll talk about it. Yeah. I can see other projects like this as well. Gosh. I want to get to another area that I think is really directly related and something that we talked about before that I think is really going to be important for FileMaker developers to think about. FileMaker partner companies are all generalists.
AppWorks, the company that I ran, and before that, and most partners, they'll do different industries. I got... For the different projects that I did, I became a subject matter expert in quite a few different areas. And on the really large projects, a very deep subject matter expert, really fitting into the department and understanding it. But not as deep as if I just only did that one industry. Not necessarily a vertical market application developer, but I think the case that you were making in our conversation was that if you can shift, maybe not even shift, if you can shift your business to become a really deep expert in one area, then the customers that you talk to just automatically already assume that you're worth what you say you're worth because you're a complete trusted insider.
Is that fair? How would you reword that? That's one approach. So the question that comes up is, when we're talking about value pricing and your quote is twice as much as any other estimate they get, the question is, how do you defend that? And there's a couple of ways to do it. One is that you're the one and only at the thing that you do. Sometimes that looks like deep. Industry specialization or vertical specialization. Other times it's more of a horizontal thing. But if you are just one of many, then yes, you're going to face, you're going to have a race to zero and you have to compete on price. So you have to come up with a way to not be competing on price.
And honestly, I don't think that FileMaker partnerships compete on price like that. I don't think that's a thing that much. Good for them. Yeah. It's hard to believe, but okay. Aren't they all charging around the same amount per hour? Yeah, but it's, it's enough of an amount that they can make a good profit and that they can pay their employees well and have health insurance and all the other stuff they're making, you know, making a living, but not a killing, I would say, but that's fair. There's nothing to change. No, that's, I don't, I'm not definitely not saying that because the world has changed because now, even though they've been efficient at doing this and doing that the way they have been, they're going to be left in this place where they could be doing a huge amount more work.
And on a mature project, it's definitely not a 10X multiplier. On a mature FileMaker project? Yeah, or any project. There's a big difference between FileMaker and React in terms of AI capabilities. But if it's, if you have a React project for a gigantic website for a company that's been running the company for 10 years, and there's all this stuff going on, the customer is hiring you to maintain a huge amount of this code, and then also build a few things over here. You're not going to get a 10X. You're not going to get a 10X time on that, I don't think. Do you think? No, but that's not a great project. That's the bread and butter of most consulting companies.
Maintaining it, the long tail is really... I disagree. I think that's a, I'm not going to disagree that people, that you're wrong. I'm just saying that's, that's a business model choice. Being in the maintenance and support business is a low margin business. So if that's what you want to do, go ahead. I disagree there too. If you could do a project in a month for $300,000, that's way higher profit than, you know, making... If you could win that project, but then you also have to do something. Once that customer is there, every X number of years, they're going to do something big. And every, throughout the year, they're going to be doing a bunch of small things.
And if you could build them your normal hourly rate, which is high, and you could efficiently manage the people who are doing it, you're still making... You're still making a significant profit all through that time. And in your company, and if those big projects come at you, then you take them and get them, but they're not going to happen every week. I don't think. And then also, who's going to maintain these things? Are you just going to do the big project and launch it off to who for maintenance? That's not good customer service. You run your business how you want, but that's... What are you recommending? What would you say? I can tell you what I used to do.
So what I would do is... Someone would come along. They would have some... We read your book. We heard you at the conference or whatever. You're the guy. We want you to do this thing. It's a big deal. It's a game changer for our business. Let's say they're switching from... Let me go back to a software project. So, yeah. So here was one. This is going far back, but where somebody wanted to switch from... They had a... Big FileMaker. Classic, big, huge FileMaker system running the whole place. They wanted to have a customer portal that wasn't dog slow. And at the time, the FileMaker backed one. It was just very problematic. So they wanted to switch over to MySQL database for some of the...
To support the website somehow. But they didn't want to rebuild the entire internal backend. Yeah. That's super common. Even still. Yeah. So that's a one-time project. You can just say, okay, it'll be this much. And here are the benefits that you'll get out of it. It's either worth that much to them or it's not. And then you can... As fast as you can get that done at a high level of quality, the faster, the better. For them and for you. Okay. We agree there. Okay. So then at the end of it, I didn't want to be in the support and maintenance business. Because I didn't have an employee. So I had no... It was just me. I just wanted to do the fun stuff. Supporting a project.
Work 10 years is not fun. That's the kind of thing you give to an employee. So I was like, all right. So the next step is... Or what actually happened in this particular case is that they had an internal person who I trained how to maintain it. So you hand it off. It's a teach someone to fish instead of fishing for them or giving them a fish. So it's like I would say, okay, if they didn't have an internal person, I would have had them. I would say, okay, pay me this much per month and I will help you. Find onboard and train someone to maintain this. I'm not going to maintain it. I didn't want to do that kind of work. I don't think, I don't think that, I don't know, maybe there are people out there that really find that fun.
To me, that just feels like being an employee. I guess I just take a really different take. Having founded and sold a couple of companies, and I've been in the business of doing this for 30 plus years, I definitely felt that it was much better customer service to support the customer over time. And that long tail made it much, much easier to sell them on those bigger projects when they came. And every year, they always, or every so often, on all the customers that you're maintaining, a big project will come from them. And then if you don't have to sell it, you can, and you can still price it the way, whatever way you want, that's a lot less work. And then through all of that time, you've got a really good relationship with that customer.
And then you get all the leads from the, from them. I grew businesses considerably this way, grew from nothing to considerable revenue. And also, I had a vertical market company, and there's only one way to make a living and a vertical on that support. If you can't support your product, you're dead as a vertical company. You can't train someone internally to do that. That's a different business model completely. I mean, that's a completely different business model. But it's also very high profit if you could do it. Yeah, but that's... Way more. Yeah, of course. No argument there, but that's a different... That's value pricing. Poof. That's already solved with the vertical market.
But that's... Well, I think that ship has sailed for FileMaker. I don't think it's... I think it's been tough as a vertical market FileMaker developer. But I think that's gone now because of the guys... When you say vertical market, you're saying you built a product that had a support team. Yeah. Built a product. So in my case, it was pre-win software back in the day, 1999 we founded it. And it was a software for, this will really date me, for advertisements in mainly weekly newspapers. So back then, classified ads were totally the rage. And they were really profitable because they got... A newspaper would have had 20 pages of ads. And this product completely automated that.
It made it super easy to take it, super easy to sell it. And then push a button and it would lay out the whole entire page. So the production was great. And then the business completely changed because Craiglist came out. Yeah. And so we switched to display advertising. We got more in the magazine markets. The company grew. It grew all the way through dot-bomb, right? It continually grew. It never really shrank all the years. But that's not a consulting business. That's... No, that's not a consulting business. That's a different conversation. Yeah. And we had the product... It's basically a SaaS. Yeah. But I think now, if you were going to do that, you couldn't really build it in FileMaker.
I think you'd have to... You'd really do it in a different way because you could use these new tools to make it so much more deployable. And yeah. Yeah. Why would you... The benefit of FileMaker is... Is that it was a rapid application development environment. You could build stuff crazy fast that had all the basic stuff built in, like permissions, security, cross-platform. It was the fastest way to do it for a long time. For a long time. And then I remember when Rails came out, I was like, and... And then... Let's see. What were the competitors? Servoy and Airtable to a certain extent. I have a notion. I don't think... I don't think commerce partner companies...
Because we're losing business of those. Great. Sounds like everything's good. I'm not... I'm not trying to say everything is rosy. Really, the point of this is to say, how could... What do we need to be thinking about? And I'm in a different game now, right? So my... Having sold that company, gosh, five years ago now, and focused just on training. And now what I do is AI integration assistance. Yeah. Following your model. Right? I suppose. Is... I'm not really familiar with the FileMaker world to the extent... Anywhere near the way that I was way back when. Sure. Do you feel like the... Do you feel like the FileMaker market, the people, the clients, customers who are new to FileMaker, do you think that it's growing or shrinking?
Oh, you mean net new FileMaker customers? Yeah. That hasn't grown for ever. The market for FileMaker customers is, I think, I don't know, I might be skewed on this. Two areas. One of them is people who used FileMaker however long ago in the past. Like a really great opportunity for, that's very common, is someone comes to a company, they bring their FileMaker database with them that they used to use at the other's place. They're all of a sudden the rock star in their department because they can do stuff in their department. Nobody else can do because they can control it. And then some boss goes, wow, this is great. Why don't we buy 50 copies of this and hire a company and build it out?
So that one little ember becomes a significant business. And another one is companies, customers that already use it and they're expanding it to other divisions, other parts, just more users in a different way. Because one of the things that I've seen with FileMaker is that companies that have been using it for a long time, out-competed their competition because they were able to change their software and grow and change and adapt. And their competitors couldn't because they were using all these other tools. But that landscape is changing too. Yeah. And what you just said, both examples, it's someone who used to use FileMaker back in the day or has never stopped using FileMaker.
So it's not like we're the new FileMaker customers coming from. Yeah. I don't think that's been a realistic market for a really long time, frankly. So you can't. Yeah. They don't really have. They don't really have the marketing for it. And actually, I do know that several partners are doing it, are getting that new. But they're basically saying, hey, we can build a solution for you. And the customer doesn't really get to give it them what it's written in. Yeah. It's not a FileMaker. They're not. Yeah. It's not a FileMaker sale. It's just they're like, we're going to. FileMaker is just a way it means to an end, right? It's not a. Right. No, but we could talk about what a platform specialization is and why it's interesting and all those things.
Sure. FileMaker is a very. Very interesting platform specialization in 2000. I don't think it's a very interesting specialization today if you're not already doing it and already known for it and already have a customer base. If you're if you're coming out of college and you're like, I want to build a software consulting company, you wouldn't pick FileMaker. So not that commonly actually at the Apple Development University. That's not what it's called. Apple Developer Academy. They're actually teaching FileMaker as part of the curriculum for the students. So they're teaching. They're teaching Swift and FileMaker and some other things. And a number of new FileMaker development companies are actually coming out of that from the students who are coming out and they're just choosing FileMaker because they like it better.
Yeah, I can see it. So you're trying to tell me that. I'm not telling you thousands of them. I'm telling you it's some of them. So people are already in the Apple Kool-Aid land are learning Swift and FileMaker. Oh, I don't think I'd say that. You can. You can just come out of high school or whatever and you could want to learn development. And so you discover that there's this program and we're at the Developer Academy. You want to move to Naples in Italy. We're one of the ones that's the most successful programs are for FileMaker and Swift. There's hundreds of people who go into the program. I've met a bunch of them and a lot of them have come out and gotten jobs at FileMaker shops.
Not most, but definitely some. But that's the exception. Non-zero. That's kind of the exception. That's the only place I'm seeing it. Anyway, I'm saying it's not zero. Okay. I believe that. So in the land where the number one problem with unemployment are people coming out of college. What's an eye to do there? This is pretty off topic, but. Yeah, beats me. I mean, I have a 16 year old. He's programmed to be an electrician, so it beats me. I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. I can tell you what people say, but there's, I think, two camps. One is that it's going to be a major problem and people are just going to have to go into the trades or whatever.
And the other camp is the real job loss is going to be in the middle where there are experts at the top with a lot of experience that will be enabled. The sort of superpowers will be amplified with AI and then entry level people can be way more productive. Then they would have been otherwise using AI and they're cheap. So it's possible that this tech trend does what all of the big ones in my lifetime did, which is it eviscerates the middle and the places at the end, like the very low margin, low cost and actually does fine. And the very high margin high end does fine. I can see that argument. I can see that being the case. I can see that too. That's interesting.
One of the ones that I heard, which I thought was interesting, was that when a new tech. Technology that's disruptive like this has come out. It's three phases. The first phase is definitely net job loss, which is where we are right now. And the second phase is stabilizes and equalizes. And then the third phase is it creates a bunch of jobs. Can you think about when the PC came out or like desktop publishing? Right. Anything that anybody watching this show does for a job. They exist. True. But this is phase, right? Yeah. How rough is the phase going to be? Yeah. How long will it take? Is it going to follow the same trajectory? I don't know. I guess I I'm very positive about AI.
I really think that right now a ton of great software is being written and a lot of important problems are being solved. And I listened to the moonshots podcast, which I really, it's very thought provoking. Is that the Peter Diamantis thing? Yeah. With some really good guests. Where was I going with that? And they're basically saying. That if you were to say about the trend, is it going to, is the trend going to play out the same way? Yes and no. They're saying that there's a real situation with kids. They actually are saying the trend is going to play the same way. But your kids, 16, no broad, no job prospects. They have the same interests. They have interests and projects and hobbies and stuff that they want to do.
And now all of a sudden they have these tools that they can start building, put them up on GitHub, and that's their resume. They can go to, they can go to places where they could make a den. And they can go to places where they could make a den. And they can go to places where they could make a den. And they can go to places where they could make a den. And they can go to places where they could make a den. And they can go to places where they could make a den. Very much value pricing, Jonathan. Yeah. I think 10 or maybe 100 times more software is going to get written because things that weren't feasible financially, because the payoff probably wasn't there.
Yeah. Now will be inexpensive enough that you can have your nephew build all of those prototypes or these one-shot simple vibe coded tools that aren't mission critical, but are nice to have. In one way, the amount of software. That gets written, I think will go way, way up. But at the same time, I think it's one of my friends, David Gutman said, he calls it like we've entered the disposable fork phase of software development where you just build something to use it once and forget about it. It's a disposable apps basically. Yeah. And that's been my experience. Like I've made stuff that I forgot I made. Yeah. The process of developing something when you, when you use AI.
Hundreds of little Python programs get written, used, tossed. Yes. And I think in the larger sense, I think you're right. Although I'm, I've just been, my whole life has been around building durable applications. There are so many databases I wrote 20, 30 years ago that are still running the companies. Yeah. The two companies that I've found that are still going strong with their biggest projects. Yeah. I think, so there's a flip side of this. I don't want to come off like I'm an AI max or. It's the flip side of this is people change really slowly organizations change even more slowly. So, and I'm, I am famously bad, famous to myself, famously bad at predicting how quickly things are going to happen.
And I always think it's going to happen way faster. I remember in 2013, I think it was, I was like, this is the year when everybody starts paying for things with their phones and it has not happened yet that everybody's paying for things in their phones. Like lots of, what's that long time ago that happened in Europe, in the United States. I think the number is 25% of people use their phone for some transactions. So it certainly wasn't 2013 on a credit card and I thought it was really weird because everybody, yeah, yeah. Anyway, no, it's still credit cards here, but yeah. So I don't know how long it's going to probably take longer than the people that are on the bleeding edge of the technology probably are underestimating how long it takes people in organizations to change.
And they might, the response to that might be, oh, they're going to get put out of business. And I'm like, they have customers who don't want to change either. So I think it's going to be less of a asteroid level event than the press or the VC companies want. Yeah. I think there's something to that, especially given that AI in general has that 30% approval rating. 20% disapproval in the U S yeah, that's very low. Most people and most people don't understand it because it's really hard and takes a lot of effort and time to understand it and don't like it. And they've seen, they've seen some examples of it that are bad, right? Scams of people trying to scam you fake video.
That looks like the real people who, you know, writing papers and submitting anybody who, who thinks that a student can use it to cheat. And every single one, everything you're listing to me, I'm like, yeah, the teacher's doing it wrong. That if you use AI properly for education, it could be massively useful and the kid can learn way faster than they ever could before. But you have to have a program in place to watch what they're doing, monitor their use of AI and watch how fast they're learning. How can they do it? How can you motivate them more? Are they doing the right things, et cetera, and then watch the monitor rate faster than you could ever teach them as a teacher.
Scammers and cheaters have always existed. This is a tool that empowers scammers and cheaters. It also encourages builders and creators and artists and everyone else. So it's a tool. Okay, great. Now we've established it's a tool and can be used for good and bad things. And if you want to get into an education thing, let's do it. I homeschooled my kids. So obviously you can get a sense of where I probably land in this argument, but that's probably a waste of everyone's time. Actually, let's talk a little bit about it. A little bit more, because I think by homeschooling your kids, you're seeing their potential and you're letting them really do way more than they'd be able to do in a public school.
I think is that what you're saying? My experience of public school a long time ago when I went was that it was very rigid and the, it was very much, it was like they were training people to work in factories and ring the bell and do what we say and no running around yet. It was just very, I don't know. I just didn't like it. It wasn't a good fit. For my personality. So throwing my kids into a situation like that, I thought was suboptimal. Let's say my goal is for them to learn as contrasted with be educated. Yeah. The thing done to them. Yeah. Round rounded education. I haven't heard that term, but it just, it was just like, it was like you were talking about before with kids coming out of college.
Yeah. Or, or high school and having a GitHub repo and this is my resume. That's that I think is like projects. It's what have you built? That's what I would want if I were hiring and I'm not a hire type of person, but I wouldn't care when they went to school. I could care less. It's show me what you show me your code. Show me what have you built? What have you shipped to the extent that schools are doing that now? Great. I don't really know. I don't really know what public education is doing or even private education, especially private education. I don't know what they're doing. Maybe they're doing. This, which is what I think would be a good thing. I do too.
I hope so. It was more project based. But teachers are not among the fastest adopters of technology. I'll try to be kind. I don't know. Yeah, I guess not. Yeah. I overheard two teachers talking at a flag football game yesterday and they were, and I heard one of them say, oh, he's teaching freshman high school. And the other talking to some other teachers seemed like from a different school and they were joking about how, if they can, if you can make it through the year without having an administrative violation or something, which I assume is some kind of like administrators need to intervene in the classroom. Then you're like a rock star, which said, but which to me, it sounded like they were like daycare or something.
If we just keep the kids from beating each other to a pulp, then we've done a good job. And yeah, I'm not throwing shade on teachers, but that. I had a very different school experience. I went to. Seems like everything I say, you have a very different experience. Yeah, everybody has a different one. I had, I went to a private high school, Catholic school, and I loved it. And I thought the, and I thought the teachers were very supportive of learning and I took Spanish and was fluent in year two. That's because the teachers were so good and because they motivated me to learn whatever shout out to Mrs. Dankert. I also went to Catholic high school and had one good teacher the whole time.
Oh man, I can't remember a bad one. Yeah. I guess I looked out there. Okay. Maybe. So let's not talk about, I don't want to talk about education. Let's talk about business. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about business. Let's see. What have we, I want to dive into this more. I want to actually get recommendations from you. Okay. From all the work that you've been done, that I've done with a lot of different types of companies aimed at the file maker consulting individual person or small company, let's say. So we're not going to maybe not consider the beeswaxes of the world in this discussion. How can we, they change our focus to the, you know, to the individual person or the small company?
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